WHY NO SOUTHWEST TO HAWAII?
WHY NO SOUTHWEST TO HAWAII?
See below for April 10 update
Everyone at Southwest Airlines was saddened by the sudden termination of service by our codeshare partner, ATA Airlines. Setting aside the business relationship for just a second, we appreciate the hard work of our colleagues at ATA, and wish them nothing but the best in the future.
However, I thought I should post a quick blog about a question that's come up MANY times since ATA ceased operating–why didn't Southwest buy (or take over) ATA's Hawaii routes? As much as all of us at Southwest would love to have done it, there are a few absolute brick walls that prevent us from just jumping in on short notice to fill the void left by ATA.
The simple answer: we can't.
First, there is no such thing as "buying" a domestic US route these days. Deregulation of the industry the late 1970's meant that any airline could fly between any two points in the US if they wanted to. Some international route authories are still tightly controlled, but mainland–Hawaii service is considered domestic. So there was nothing to buy.
Okay--on to the brick walls. Brick wall #1–Southwest's aircraft are not ready to quickly start flying to Hawaii. Twin-engine aircraft require extra equipment, and their flight and ground crews extra training, in order to fly longhaul flights over vast stretches of open water. ATA's Boeing 737's and employees (as were those of Aloha Airlines) were already fully certified in that process. Southwest's haven't been, because we have never needed it.
Brick wall #2–resource availability. Southwest's low costs are predicated on efficiency and part of that efficiency means we don't have spare, unused aircraft and Crews simply sitting around waiting for something to do. If we were to undertake a large-scale new operation on very short notice (and simply duplicating ATA's Hawaii operations would require nearly a dozen aircraft and the opening of five new cities), we would have to cancel existing service to free up aircraft, reaccommodate Customers booked on those flights, and reroute possibly hundreds of Crew pairings–all at a huge cost to both Customers and Crews. In these days of $100 a barrel oil, that is a cost Southwest just couldn't justify.
Going further...in response to these brick walls, many have asked why Southwest just didn't buy ATA's aircraft (already certificated and in use for Hawaiian operations) and use those aircraft to fly ATA's former routes. Again, it's a lot easier said than done. First, the certification for longhaul overwater operations is specific to the airline, not the aircraft–so even if we had slapped a Southwest logo on ATA's aircraft, we still couldn't immediately begin boarding our first departure to Honolulu. And while ATA flew 737's (among other aircraft types) to Hawaii, they were the 737-800, a different type of 737 than Southwest's (we fly -300's, -500's, and -700's). Introducing a new aircraft type into an airline's fleet is an expensive, time-consuming, and resource-intensive activity, and our current focus and efforts are better spent on improving the efficiency and performance of our existing, mainland-based network.
Again, we are enormously disappointed at this turn of events–but I hope this answers some of your questions as to why Southwest isn't able to simply swoop in and take up the Hawaiian "slack"....and we sincerely wish all of ATA's employees the best of luck. Thanks for reading "Nuts About Southwest!"
Update as of April 10, 2008:
Today, Southwest began contacting Customers who purchased Southwest tickets operated by ATA Airlines and were scheduled to commence travel after from May 3rd to process full refunds of their tickets. While we have successfully reaccommodated the majority of our Customers traveling between now and May 3, we have also realized that the only realistic option as we go forward into peak travel season is to give full refunds on existing purchased tickets. As we examined reaccomodation options beyond May 3, it became readily apparent that, given the significant reduction in capacity between the Mainland and Hawaii after the discontinuation of both ATA and Aloha Airlines, there were simply too few seats left available to offer all of our Customers suitable rebooking options.
Why was May 3 picked as the date? Well, the simple answer is that it gave Southwest 30 days to handle Customers that were most immediately impacted--to contact them, to reaccomodate them, and to get them on their way. Looking past that date, though, it was pretty clear after a week of study that the options past May 3 were not greater--they were fewer.
I can honestly say that everyone at Southwest is heartsick at this outcome, just as we are enormously disappointed at the sudden demise of ATA. However, we *do* think it is better to refund existing, paid Southwest tickets on ATA flights, rather than to keep you waiting on options that would most probably be inferior to the great service that we had planned to provide for you.
To answer a harder question.....did we look at other options? Of course. Read the blog post above for a detailed explanation of why Southwest can't just start immediate service to Hawaii. Further, when the numbers of people booked on each, individual day were studied, there just weren't enough people on each single day to funnel them through a logical "collection" point, given their existing reservations, and arrange charter service even in the short term. And to make that option even more difficult, the list of available charter options has been significantly reduced by the current industry crisis. So, that just wasn't an option. Nor was it an acceptable option to keep you on pins and needles.....thus this decision.
Again, those Customers who purchased Southwest tickets operated by ATA Airlines and were scheduled to begin their trips between May 4 and August 22,2008, will receive a full refund delivered to your original form of payment and a Southwest LUV voucher as a gesture of goodwill for this inconvenience....but I thought it was important to update the blog with the "breaking" news. We had hoped to build on our relationship with ATA, but they decided they couldn't continue in the current business climate. We have done what we hope is best for everyone.
All of us here at the Southwest Airlines are very saddened by this. We hope you will understand that ATA's discontinuation of scheduled service was just flat beyond our control...and that we are doing what we can to provide the best Service to our wonderful Customers.
Bill
Comments
Great explanation Bill. Perhaps some point down the road -- Southwest will be able to make it happen and say Aloha to the Islands!!
This was an excellent blog as I have been asking myself all of these questions since I learned about the ATA predicament. I am one of the unfortunate ones who already had a trip booked with Southwest to Hawaii in May. I understand that I should wait until after Apr. 7th to contact Southwest to determine my fate, but with all the other travel accommodations already set in stone, I would sure like to know (sooner) what if anything Southwest plans to do with us... give a refund or find a way to accommodate the customer?? If a refund is the answer, then I have to hustle to get other accommodations made on my own! [I'm not an angry customer at all. I totally understand how business works... just would like to know a little more about my individual situation.]
[...] Why Southwest Airlines Isn’t Flying to Hawaii - After ATA shut-down services, SWA can’t just start flying to Hawaii to pick up the business of its former partner. [...]
Working in the industry, I know exactly what you are talking about. A common term that I used to have to work with was ETOPS, Ref wikipdeia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS for more info. If that is not enough info into ETOPS, for those with time and desire for knowledge, go to http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20071800/edocket.access.gpo... . This document from the FAA basically covers many more details concerning over water flight.
After looking at the last document, many of you should see that over water flight is not as simple as it may look.
1.) Aircraft I would guess already have the required avionics, but would probably require more safety equipment on board.
2.) Flight crews would require more and different training, as would maintenance crews.
3.) Would need maintenance base over in Hawaii (as flying items on MEL are severly reduced for overflight travel.) This would also mean more cost for storage and maintenance of parts. An example may be the Auto Pilot. Flying over land, MEL on the Auto Pilot for example, flying over land, it would not be required, however, over water it is a NO-GO. Therefore, they would need ALL the parts available on site to repair this problem. This could be MILLIONS of dollars worth of parts alone.
4.) Company must preform proving runs to prove to the FAA that they can do this safely and this takes time.
5.) They must open a base at the desired station(s), train the personell, supply the ground equipment, and more.
I am sure that I left alot of details out, but doing this would be no easy task... I for one would love to see SWA undertake this, but it would be a very expensive and time consuming task. I am sure that some day, SWA will have routes over there, but not in the close foreseeable future.
I hope that I have not confuesed anyone with this, but I hope it outlines alot of whys to SWA's decision.
But you guys could have bought ATA and run it as a separate airline until you could get your own fleet and airline certified for overwater flying. I'm not saying that's what you SHOULD do, but it's an option.
Bill ... there you go with logic again!
Come on! Can't we go to Hawaii just because it would be WAY COOL :-)
B
Diana,
If you purchased your ticket to Hawaii directly from Southwest, we will rebook you on another airline to Hawaii at our cost. Keep in mind that the time will probably be different and depending upon from where you are traveling, it may involve a connection. We are asking folks with travel in May to wait until we can reaccommodate those with immediate travel plans. Again, if you purchased the ticket directly from Southwest, you may also obtain a refund. If that is the path you are seeking, you may call our normal Reservations number for a refund at 1 800 I Fly SWA. (Our regular Reservations line can't handle the reaccommodation process.)
bRIAN
Brian, thank you. This information was helpful and I appreciate it!
BTW: I do love Southwest Airlines. I'll be back and I know you guys will figure out how best to serve your customers soon!
Does Southwest have plans to code-share with another airline now that ATA is gone?
It would be nice to that since Southwest is slow at moving into new cities.
Sun Country flys to a lot of cities that Southwest doesn't fly to and also uses 737's, maybe that would be a good fit to expand both networks.
Would it have been possible for Southwest to somehow "prop up" ATA for a very short period of time, with the stipulation that no new trips could originate? This would have been expensive, sure. But, it would have demonstrated a commitment to customers who (as of the time of ATA's shutdown) had already flown the outbound portion of their itinerary but had not flown the return segment(s). Possibly some kind of "wet lease" agreement and/or Southwest paying ATA's operating costs (for the scheduled service side of their business only) for 1 or 2 weeks?
>>>Sun Country flys to a lot of cities that Southwest doesnÃ
Based on how quickly ATA went down the drain, I think it was prudent to not try to prop them up.
Sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't do.
Any possibility of acquiring ATA's terminal space at DCA? LUV to have you guys out of DCA.
Happy Friday afternoon, everyone! A few answers/comments:
Diana...even though Brian has already answered you--best of luck!!! And see you again soon, I hope.
John C.---excellent, and spot-on, additional information, sir. Thanks!
Cranky, operating any subsidiary operation would open up a host of work-scope and union issues--none of which could, or would, be solved quickly enough to implement before ATA's shutdown.
Bob--thanks for lunch! :)
Steve, we may be slow to move into new cities....but remember the old children's story about the tortise and the hare?
Jon, Southwest had no equity stake or business interest in ATA, and it just wouldn't have made good business sense to do so given their financials.
Rich, since DCA is tightly slot-controlled--and ATA had pulled out of DCA late last year--getting into DCA will be difficult for Southwest. For the time being I hope you'll be able to access the Southwest network via our new service to Dulles, or our huge operation at Baltimore.
Keep commenting--I'll be checking over the weekend!
Bill
The thought of being on a Southwest jet on a trip as long as to Hawaii sends chills down my spine. I can't take more than a few hours all cramped up like that. Stick to what you do best with those high frequency, relatively short flights.
Thanks for a great post. I am always interested in the "inside details" of how things like airlines work. The more we understand, the better it is for customers, shareholders, and everyone.
My wife and I are/were booked to Hawaii- Maui for a friend's wedding in July out of San Diego. We were supposed to fly SW to Oakland, and then ATA to Maui. We will be traveling with a 2 month-old baby.
My wife is a loyal SW customer, so much so that we had enough Rapid Rewards points that we could book two tickets using double the points. Now it looks like our only option is Hawaiian Airlines out of San Diego, but tickets are over $800 per person and they are going fast. I'm afraid that if I wait to be called by SW, and then they tell me that they aren't accommodating Rapid Rewards tickets, that the Hawaiian tickets will be $2000 per person or gone completely. Can anyone tell me how Rapid Rewards tickets are being accommodated?
Thanks for the insider information about the Why's. It's great to hear from the company's end on why Southwest can't fly right now.
But does it have to stop there? Will Southwest fly to Hawai'i (or other overseas destinations for that matter) in the future?
As I have known, Southwest has a very good Spirit and will power to take on challenges and prevail over them. Why is Hawai'i any different? Your post here makes it sound like Hawai'i (and thus other overseas destinations) impossible to handle. I know that you can. Southwest is one of the best airlines out there.
I believe that Southwest has an opportunity to step in and build up in first Hawai'i as well as start up other destinations for the future.
Keep trying! Don't stop just because "we can't right now".
Thanks. Looking forward to flying with you again.
Peace.
Andy,
Our folks will be contacting everyone that booked a reservation through Southwest on ATA to Hawaii. Right now they are concentrating on travel for the next two weeks, but they will contact folks in the order of their travel.
Brian
Why doesn't Southwest link up with a carrier like Omni Air to operate Hawaii. I flew them and they are the best airline I have ever been on.
With two carriers Aloha and ATA out of the mainland to Hawaii market, wouldnt this be the ideal time to step in start up service? Both airlines were doing the flying with 737's and in Alohas case 700s. This could be the perfect timing! I understand the hughe process of all that would be involved but with Southwests cash and financial status now could be the time to emerge and introduce something many have waited for. As for the person above who mentioned the thought of flying ran chills down there spine, Aloha and ATA as I said flew the same metal and there service was far inferior to that of SWA's. Please Southwest, fly to the islands!!!
Bill,
thanks for the explanation but I am still a little bit disappointed. I understand that there are many problems (and that this would be challenging), but it would also secure you a few hundred very loyal customers (we who have been using the old Pleasant Hawaiian Airpass and ATA Flightbank lately).
I live parttime in the islands and will now have to switch my mainland -to-Hawaii business (140,000 miles/year, $12,000 in tickets last year, $11,000 the year before) from ATA to Hawaiian. If you start serving the islands somehow in the next six to eight months, you have a chance to keep me as a customer, otherwise I'll get "comfortable" with Hawaiian (and accumulate so many frequent flyer miles) that it will be hard to get my business back should you change my mind.
Hawaiian has already started closing in on the opportunities by putting in a new flight Honolulu to Oakland.
Thanks, Steven
I guess that the codeshare agreement with ATA wasn't the big boon as purported, otherwise one would think WN would have had more input or action to keep the concern ongoing.
As for length of time in WN jet, as mentioned by Andy above, HI-OAK/LAX is equitable to PHX-BWI and WN pax seem to tolerate that well enough.
As an attorney with experience in bankruptcy law, I can also tell you that Southwest couldn't simply cut a check and start puchasing jets from ATA's fleet. Any sale of assets would need to be approved by the bankruptcy court.
ATA filed for Chapter 11, which means this won't be a simple liqidation sale. They might sell the airline as a package or try to restructure its debt and reemerge at a later time to continue operating. Right now, it is too early to tell what will happen.
If SWA is interested and the price and logistics are right (i.e. using former ATA staffers, etc.), then service to Hawaii might be possible. But the proverbial devil is in the details, so only SWA can say if it is interested in exploring the possibilities.
Another item not mentioned is all of the southwest planes would be full of non revers going to the islands. There wouldn't be any room for paying passengers. ;-)
Andy - you say you cringe about a flight to Hawaii...what about our flight service from Hartford (BDL) to Las Vegas which is scheduled at 5 hours and 45 minutes. I think you could get to Hawaii from LAX in about 5 hours...I think. I'm working that flight later in the month...all I have to say is be sure your DVD & Laptop batteries are FULLY charged...and bring a snack, if you get hungrier for something than we are able to serve.
Hope to see you all in the SWA Luv Jets soon!
James
MDW FA
Quick question - how much extra training is required if hypothetically Southwest acquired the 737-800s? I'm guessing it would be somewhat easier as both the -700 and -800 are NGs?
First Aloha, then ATA, now Skybus have gone bankrupt. Who's next?
Bill, I can appreciate your comments that WN could not start service to Hawai'i immediately, but if they made it a priority, it could be done this calendar year for the following reasons:
1. WN is one of Boeing's best customers and their absolute best 737 customer. To exercise a dozen or so 737-700 options, Mr. Kelly needs only phone Mr. Boeing and ask for more planes, delivered in a full ETOPS configuration, and it will be done. Yes, it would be a new subfleet but the -500 subfleet is only 25 aircraft anyways, and for the most part these planes would share commonalities with the large existing -700 fleet.
2. ETOPS proving flights could be done domestically using the existing route structure. How, you ask? WN flies to many Central and South Florida destinations where the most direct route would be a straight line across the water, but regulations limit them to 60 minutes from the closest suitable diversion airport. Therefore, they currently hug the coast when going to Central/South Florida. But they could fly the more direct route across the water in a "ETOPS" proving scenario, thereby providing initial ETOPS operating data without having to open a new route.
3. If the routes don't work out to be a business success, the planes can be recycled back into the system and the ETOPS certification could be allowed to lapse. However, with the failure of TZ and AQ, I don't think that WN would fail on these routes.
OK, not quite the same thing, but years ago Delta bought Pan Am's operations to Europe, and they took over the Pan Am A310s and the staff to operate them. The A310s were a new type for Delta, and they were buying the operation from an airline that was not yet bankrupt.
If the services to Hawaii did anything for Southwest, it would be possible to run a ring-fenced operation using former ATA staff and equipment before those staff get other jobs or leave the industry.
Hi I see all the emphasis on Hawaii what about Mexico? the ATA flights to Cancun and Guadalajara were always booked to capacity. Are ther any plans for SWA to look into that run? I also remember ATA oing to Cozumel, Zacatacas, Zihuatanho(sorry for the misspelling) and others and those flights were also full. Even with the cost those routes had to be profitable.
I was also one of the unlucky ones who had a trip to Hawaii booked for May.
While I'm not angry about my situation I am angry about how ATA simply left people who showed up for their flights stranded with absolutely no help. Here in Los Angeles a couple and 11 members of their wedding party showed up for their flight and found an empty ticket counter with only a note saying ATA was closed!!
I called Alaska Air within minutes of hearing about the closure on the radio. I was lucky enough to find tickets for the same dates and times as I had booked with ATA. My ATA flight to Hawaii cost me $309 - my new flight is going to cost me $477... but here's what gets me: I checked back with Alaska Air a few hours after I booked my flight for $477 and the same flight is now going for $800!!!
I'm glad I didn't wait until April 7th... you guys are vultures!!
short answer, most airlines can't make money flying to Hawaii. Jet fuel is too expensive. cheap ticket prices can't cover expenses. The small profit is made by cargo in the belly of huge airplanes. SWA doesn't have the cargo room, nor the inclination to have all frequent flier miles converted into Hawaii trips. Please look up America West one's bankruptcy, It would look much like that.
SWA can't comply with maintenence inspections, now, let alone ETOPS requirements.
Jim said:
"Therefore, they currently hug the coast when going to Central/South Florida. But they could fly the more direct route across the water in a Ã
Are folks that booked ATA flights to Hawaii using Rapid Rewards points being rebooked on other flights, or are they just refunding the taxes, and need to rebook on another airline at full price?
I have another question regarding ATA going under than the loss of using RRs to fly to Hawaii. It is already getting difficult to use a single Rapid Reward for flights. Now that there will be many more RRs used for mainland flights that before were using two RRs to get to Hawaii, will it become impossible to get flights using a singe RR. Will the loss of Hawaii trips force everyone to convert 2 RRs to Freedom awards just to be able to get a mainland flight?
Hi, gang! A few responses.
Mickey, in this economic envorinment--now is NOT the time to be undertaking a huge expansion into Hawaii, for all of the reasons I talked about. Just a very difficult operating environment.
Steve, I'm disappointed too....and if we have no way to get you to or from Hawai'i I don't think any of us would blame you for going to the very capable folks at Hawaiian or the other carriers. Hopefully, someday if we are able to re-enter the Hawaii market (online or codeshare)....hopefully you'll give us a thought.
Carl, well said....two thumb up!
Joe, hardly---at other carriers Hawaii is usually a sink hole for non-revs. Trust me....I know....LOL
James--spot on, and you're looking GOOD, buddy! See you soon.
Jim--excellent analysis, but I still trust in the decision of our Leaders not to mump into Hawaii right now, for all the reasons I detailed in my blog piece.
Alan, any kind of subsidiary or "wet least" arrangement would open up multiple cans of worms with things like work scope, shared operations, etc. I still submit that our best option is to keep focus on our Mainland operation...and if you have ever talked to anyone that was present during the Delta/Pan Am integration, that is NOT one you want to hold up as a model of effieciency!
Susan, since we can't currently handle true international operations--and since our ATA codeshare didn't extend to those routes--no plans there.
Lori, I'm curious--did you buy Southwest Airlines tickets on ATA, or tickets directly on ATA? Southwest is busily reaccommodationg all people holding Southwest Airlines tickets on ATA service to Hawaii....see Brian's info above for the details. I hardly think that qualifies us as "vultures" (UGLY birds....)
Dusty, a few good initial points....then whatever.
Charlie, you are exactly right--our existing operations out over the Gulf don't require rafts and other ETOPS things....it's a very different animal.
DMazella and and Greg, I don't know the answer to those....if you have bookings already, just wait to be contacted. I'll see what I can find out, however.
Keep 'em coming, folks.....I'm here all weekend. Unfortunately. LOL
ETOPS is more about procedures than the overwater flying. If Southwest wanted to prep for ETOPS, they could do it with their conventional transcon flights rather than the Florida flights. Since you need ETOPS certification before you can go overwater, this is pretty much the only way to do it.
Hawaiian was an interesting case, since they didn't have any reasonable non-overwater routes to prepare with the 767. What they did is use the DC-10 (not a twin, thus not subject to ETOPS restrictions) to prepare so that they were ready to go with 767 ETOPS flying shortly after they took delivery of their first 767.
I keep seeing to stories about the people who showed up to go to there dream vacatons and were divereted one way or another. The real story here is the 10,000 people now stranded in Hawaii by ATA & Aloha. Hotel space is always at premium and try to buy a last minute one way ticket to the mainland, its a huge amount. We have considered moving to Kauai, and one thing I was worried about was if we had to come back to the mainland for some sort of emergncy. Could we afford the ticket? We had US Airwas cancel our flight home 2 years ago, and it was a disaster. 5 taxi cabs taking a full 757 of passangers to a hotel, we got checked in at 5 am. Yes that was ok as US Airways paid for it all and they fixed the plane and we left the next nite. But most all flights I have ever been on coming home from Kauai, are full flights, not much room for a stranded ATA or Aloha passanger.
Ok My question is this. Will Southwest ever start flying to Des Moines Iowa? This is where I live. I was browsing airliners.net and found a pic of arizona 1 in Des Moines from November of 2000. I would love to see them fly to Des Moines.
I can not believe that how some one can close doors taking people's money. How stupid is judicial system allowing that. If airline collected monies, goverment should make sure Airline should fly these passangers till dates committed or make an alternate arrangement with other airline for same schedule for tkt being issued & payment collected. seems whole system is turning to worst, seems pretty soon we will be worst than any 3rd world country. At least 3rd world countries do not have infrastructure or have corrupt govenment which every one knows. while here in our pround USA, we are being slapped on face legally & no one can do anything. just think who is worst???????
Bill,
I have a question that's a bit off this topic but something I've been wondering recently that relates to scheduling...does Southwest use all 8 gates in the new ISP terminal? As far as I know there's only around 30 flights a day out of ISP...any plans to get more use out of the gates WN built there with more flights? Thanks!
[...] found this interesting blog post which details the reasons why Southwest Airlines will probably not be servicing Hawaii anytime [...]
OK...I'm IN TOO!
I am SOOOOOO for an airpass with SOUTHWEST to FLY to HAWAII?? AND whoever wrote that up there---there are over 3000 of us, not a few hundred, who would proabably fly with you at LEAST ONCE monthly to tell jokes!!! lol lol No seriously, Just previously held airpass holders I think would keep you pretty busy. In as many cities you guys fly out of....if you did a flight a day from every city, well, lets say from every airport taht was at least 75-100 miles away from each other---you;d make a killing!!!!
oh wait, thered be fuel too......ok, lemme think of something else
I agree with you hc.
They showed such a lack of compassion, empathy or little thought not only fo rus, but certainly their employees. I think the whole thing sucks. It coul dahve and should happened differently, but ya know what? I believe everything happens for a reason--there's something better out there coming along, and we will all be happier for it.
just my take on it.
BUT ATA DOESSSSSSSSSSSSSS SUCK!!!
Excuses.... why can' SW fly parts in as needed and like other airlines fly the mechanics in, yes a slight delay but hopefully not always and contract out any small time services come on..
How long were you stuck in HI Bill?
Unless you were out of $$ and late for work, I can't see how it would be a problem! :-)
Nice area, but so expensive. I was there the week after the visitors center melted from the volcano. The lava was still warm. 1989 I think it was.
Joe.
Bill -
I purchased ATA tickets via Travelocity. I contacted Travelocity and all they offered was their promise that they will try to get me a refund. They suggest I contact my credit card and file a chargeback to dispute the ATA charge, (I believe the ATA site suggests that as well).
As far using the term 'vulture' I think it's quite appropriate as attested to by the dictionary: 'a person or thing that preys, esp. greedily or unscrupulously'
To raise tickets prices almost 100% within hours of ATA's announcement, knowing that 1000's of people are scrambling to find alternative flights, is VERY greedy and preying behaviour... ugly too if you ask me.
Hi,
I am a great fan of Southwest and used to fly very often when I was in Raleigh-Durham, NC. I recently moved to Atlanta and am really upset and surprised that Southwest does not operate in Atlanta. I believe Atlanta is one of the biggest business hubs in Southeast and a big business potential for SW. It would be really great if Southwest starts operating here.
Eagerly awaiting a response
Thanks!
More responses, folks!
hc and DGamma....remember, guys, Southwest is doing everything in our power to reroute people that bought Southwest Airlines tickets on flights operated by ATA---**AT NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE** unlike some airlines offering "standby" to/from Hawaii to ATA ticket holders for $100 each way.
Joe, I have been stuck in the Aloha State for several days waiting on an empty seat on more than one occaision!!!
Lori, if you bought tickets on ATA, not Southwest, then Southwest isn't who you should be calling a "vulture". See above--Southwest is doing everything we can to rebook people AT NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE to and from Hawaii. The problem is that there are just not a lot of seats, but our friendly Reservations Agents are jumping through hoops to reaccomodate everyone in date-booked order. Those than can be patient and wait for us to get to them for reacomodation will still get to and from Hawaii without any additional fare. Southwest had no say over what ATA did, when they shut down, or what kind of notice they provided. Sorry, Lori, but I can't see how that makes Southwest Airlines a vulture--if anything, we're going way above and beyond to help people that trusted Southwest with their travels to get them where they wanted to go.
And Dolly....we definitely have HotLanta on our radar screens, but as with everything, we just have to put it into the mix with everything else. There are a couple of other markets in the same boat, and we're watching them all carefully and with great interest. BTW, loved you on "American Idol" last week! :)
Bill
Any idea when I would be contacted when I am booked on a Hawaii flight in August?
With the demise of ATA, it has also left a hole for New York area passengers. The only option now is from MacArthur Airport on Long Island. For many in this area, especially in New Jersey, Long Island is really not an option. Driving to Philadelphia, though further away, is an easier, though not that convenient an option. Southwest should look into service from one of the other smaller New York regional airports such as Stewart in Newburgh, NY (serviced by AIrtran, United, American and JetBlue) or Trenton in central New Jersey (currently only serviced, I believe, by Delta).
I booked 3 ATA flights to Maui 4/26 - 5/2 using Southwest Rapid Rewards, and now I'm in the same waiting game. I think the point here many people are making is the anxiety and lack of information from southwest.com for southwest customers in this predicament: since 4/3, we have seen fares from other carriers double from $350 to $700 as of today. I have called the 800 number a few times each day wonder what I should expect from SW Reaccomodation when they DO finally contact me: will I get rerouted to a new carrier with the same flight dates without additional out of pocket charge, or will I just get refunded my Reward points (which will not help with my vacation plans), which if this is the case, I need to be told back on 4/3 when other air fares were in the $300 range. Southwest should set the correct expectation up front and as soon as possible - so far I am not certain what the official company policy is, nor when I will get called, nor if I have to start cancelling my hotel and condo bookings for my trip before that's too late. Lack of information is what's keeping a lot of people like me in limbo and upset!
Good answer to my question above, but wasn't a "ring-fenced" operation the way that Southwest ran Muse for a few months. That was not the greatest experience for Southwest, because you had to close it down, but you had an airline operating MD-80s - totally different from Southwest fleet, and you got Muse to operate routes that were complementary to Southwest's own operation.
I thought when ATA started doing DFW-MDW, MDW to NY and Washington etc, that ATA became a sort of proxy -Southwest.
Whether Southwest does some things itself, or with a partner - maybe as a partner for a Europe based airline - I know it has to be something that produces a win for Southwest. A WN-win situation.
Hawiian Air added 2 roundtrip flights from HNL to Oakland to take only stranded ATA & Aloha passangers and the 2 flights from HNL sold out before the Media got ahold of it to tell the public today. The Hawaii Tourism Authority helped set it up, heres the link.
http://www.kauaiworld.com/articles/2008/04/07/breaking_news/breaking01.t...
Oh and it was not free, $200 one-way
Well the day has come, you've finally decided the fate of my family and their vacation and for all of you out there wondering about Rapid Rewards for travel with ata after May 3rd you're not going to get anything but your rapid rewards miles, possible waiver of the $50 extention. That's it. I they can't even tell me when they will be willing to call me and notify me of this. Now if your kids were one of the lucky ones traveling before May 3rd SW is willing to reaccomodate you. Now if it sounds like I'm angry, that's because I am. I wasn't to start with. I understand business, I understand you were caught off guard, but shouldn't you have clear ideas of what you are going to do in these situations? I was told by an agent last week that she would assure me that even though I was on a Rapid Reward, since I had booked through Southwest that they would reaccomodate me and I WOULD be going to HAwaii. I know you are going to say, well she was misinformed. OK So what is your excuse for making me wait until all other options were gone and flights have tripled in cost, and still i had to contact you. You know who I am, send me an email, tell me you're not going to reaccomodate me, fess up. I realize fuel has gone up.....and all the other things you people reading this are going to throw out there, but consider this I have companion status on Southwest and have saved over a year to go. Even if I could find something for my travel dates that I could afford I'm now sitting with RR tickets that they won't extend over a couple of years so I won't lose them. SO I pay for tickets to HAwaii and lose future vacations I've already earned. BUT< BUT Most important to me is that Southwest thinks my family is less important than the other Rapid Rewards customers traveling between now and May 3rd. Southwest you blew it this time.
I called the 800 number today to try to rebook by 4/26-5/2 flight. There was long hold (30 minutes), probably due to the mad 4/8 rush - but the good news is the SW agent was able to rebook my flights on another carrier, with comparable arrival/departure times, and not a dime out of my pocket! My faith is restored on Southwest, Thank you!
Just a thought about SWA and international travel. Someone with some (lots of) money could copy the SWA model with international travel. Once they become available, they'd buy a fleet of the new 787's and only run 787's...
The airline would only fly long haul, multiple stops, for low cost. The airline would have a similar seating setup as with SouthWest, no 1st class, zoned boarding, etc.
The airline could then code-share with Southwest, and fly out of fair weather hubs like LAS, PHX, LUV, etc.
Excellent explanation. As the spouse of a stockholder, I appreciate the fact that Southwest does not jump into markets. You have a tricky issue Rapid Rewards, but $107-a-barrel oil leaves all airlines with tough decisions that focus on survival.
Thanks for that great explanation! I am disapointed as I've been saving reward points for 2 years for a trip to Hawaii, but this helps me understand the situation.
Will it do me any good to call Southwest for a flight in July or will they just tell us to wait in line? My fear is that by the time they get around to calling me they will have decided to just hand out refunds. If that is the case there will be no way my wife and I could afford to go to Hawaii. Which really sucks because my in-laws were giving us there timeshare and that won't happen again anytime soon.
Laura, Sorry to hear about your trravel plans being ruined. I too am in the same boat with the rewards travel except I have not been contacted by anyone, as I am sure they are busy. I wish they would just tell us something though. I chose to fly SWA for business so I can take my wife to Hawai'i in May. I guess I will go back to flying Continental Airlines full time since they not only fly to Hawai'i, but places all over the world. The Hawaii destinations made flying SWA more attractive to me. I fly at least 2, sometimes up to 4 times a week. I will say that SWA employees are very friendly, but friendly is not going to reward my wife with a dream vacation......
I am very interested to see how my RR tickets will be handled for a 5/4-5/14 trip to Hawaii. This was booked last year for my honeymoon. I have been saving for the last couple years and always fly exclusively on SW so that when this day did come I would be able to fly for free for all of my loyalty that I have showed to SW. If this was not the case and you did not have a great RR program, great CS and did not fly to Hawaii, I would have chose another airline to do business with. This is very troubling that I am left in limbo with so many things on my mind and to add to the fact that my flight is now cancelled and nobody at SW can give me an answer. Just let us know something. I am going to Hawaii one way or another and need to know an answer ASAP. I hope dearly that SW will keep the faith that I have in them and continue to provide the outstanding CS that they always have. SW, don't let me down.
Called reaccomodation office for most recent update. Maybe those of us with RR tickets, booked by SW for ata, after 5/3 may still have hope. I was told this morning, no way, but this afternoon they seem to be saying if you hold on........maybe they'll be able to establish reaccomodations agreements. They will try to have everyone, in order of travel, called back within 30 days. I don't know which agent is right. Time will tell. I just didn't want to be responsible for misleading anyone. I was just passing on what I, myself, was told. Hope everything works out for all of us, as I sit biting my nails, hoping there are seats left when we find out our fate.
Bill,
While I agree with many of your points, I only ask you review what Southwest did just a few years back in taking a 27% ownership stake in ATA. That is what caused this whole codeshare thing to begin in the firstplace and put us to this point today.
If we were banking on the history of Southwest and their "interests," ATA would probably have been in the SWA fold long ago, but I feel management saw that this wasn't going to be a core competitive strength of theirs when another company bought 100% back in 06 and absolved Southwest of everything but the codeshares and the new destinations.
Still, I feel that when you make a business decision that operates ultimately in your best interest, you can lose money now to make money in the long run. Injecting cash to ATA would have been the best scenario as it would have kept the airline afloat and helped to move all of the stranded Aloha customers back to the Islands, giving you guys an opportunity to get under the hood and see if it would be profitable in the long run. Buying a stake like was previously done in 2004 wouldn't have required anything extra special and given some extra time to explore strategic options for both you and ATA. Even though Southwest wouldn't want ATA long term on its books like it found out from '04-06, more damage is done now in gaining independent codeshare operations with international vendors. Who's left that isn't already part of one of the global codeshare operations? Ryanair?
Just some stuff to gnaw on.
When I called today to check on the status of my flight scheduled to Hawaii May 21st, I was told they were on May 3rd. Is there somewhere where we can follow the status of the dates to see where they are?
Dear Brian,
Like Andy in the comments above my family has been planning this trip to
Hawaii for about three years. We have actually spent about $300 renewing our rr tickets so that we would have enough to send the 4 of us. This was supposed to be a once in a lifetime trip for my family. The opportunity will not arrise again because my kids will soon be out of the house and into their own lives. I understand that May 3 will probably be the cutoff date for those
who are using rr tickets. This seems a shame because although we
have been booked since January, I know that a person who scheduled a flight
at the last minute in March and planned to leave before May 3 would be able to jump ahead of the rest of us and have his tickets intact. I would be willing
to even pay a little extra if that would help out or would the company this once
let us try to sell a few of our tickets to get the money to purchase elsewhere.
Thankyou for a place to come and talk to someone. Sincerely Ernie
Have patience! I am flying in 2 days and there are all sorts of problems with my reservation, but I know SW will work it out. I am on RR and they are rebooking me....just taking alot of time due to various issues with paper tickets, cancellations, etc. SW rocks!
After reading all of the info, finally made it clear why it isn't so easy for another airline to take over the routes to Hawaii. Was booked in May for Maui on Aloha. Can't get tickets now because price is so high on any other airline and to many stops for our age. Would like to know if anyone will be taking the non-stop routes from John Wayne Airport to Maui, in the near future or ever.
Thanks Southwest for the info and maybe we will see you again if we go to Vegas for our 35th anniversary instead of Maui.
This has nothing to do with Hawaii, but I don't know where else to put this topic. Has Southwest ever considered (or would it consider) flying from MDW direct to Daytona Beach?? Not a single airline from either MDW or ORD flies to DAB non-stop. I know sooooo many people that have to fly into Orlando and make the 70 mile drive to Daytona. The Daytona Airport is hassle free, very clean & a great option VS. the HUGE traffic at Orlando. AirTran flies from MDW to DAB, but with a change of planes in Atlanta.....I do fly this quite often to avoid MCO, but sometimes I hate the Atlanta plane change even more....not to mention to luggage that often does not make the connection. Please consider flights into Daytona Beach - I would LUV to see Southwest give it a chance!!
Bill,
Wow, it's great to see you answer each question personally. And I will begin by saying, I luv southwest both as a customer and as an investor.
I am dissappointed with Southwest not deciding to buy ATA and their operations to Hawaii. Everyone on the blog mentions the potential problems southwest would have to integrate the ATA's fleet of 737-800s, but no one has mentioned buying and operating ATA's fleet of 757's.
The 757's will be able to carry more passengers in heavily traveled markets, perhaps combining 2 or 3 rush hour flights into one flight on the 757s. You can certify these plans for ETOPS and have them fly to Hawaii with slightly less frequency than the 737's. Although, you will have problems integrating the 757s into the southwest fleet of 737-700s, it would be much better to integrate a larger and more fuel efficient 757 than another 737, which southwest is full of.
I think everyone would just luv to see WN fly to Hawaii.
Dorothy,
You probably won't see Southwest fly to Daytona Beach anytime soon because they already serve nearby airports such as Jacksonville and Orlando (Southwest has a huge presence at MCO) I have been to MCO about 25 times and find it easy to get in and out of there compared to some other airports.
It would be nice to see Southwest go into a couple cities and do some short haul flights such as Minneapolis to Denver, St. Louis, and Chicago. they could probably do it with 2 or 3 planes. Chicago is an hour each way. St. Louis is 90 minutes and Denver is 2 hours. This would cover about 75% of Southwest's cities in one layover or less.
It would also be nice to see Southwest fly to Las Vegas or Phoenix from either PBI or FLL. You can't get to west coast in one stop from South Florida.
I just received the sad news that for those of us booked on ATA after May 3 there is no hope of getting to Hawaii. I reissued 4 tickets to make this a "free" flight which cost me $200. Now I have to pay a penalty to the hotel for canceling my reservation. So I get the awards back and extra travel vouchers and it only cost me $450 to go nowhere. I should be happy about this????
I am saddened that Southwest has decided to cancel my flights to Hawaii. My husband and I didn't really have a honeymoon because we chose to include our 3 children in our marriage ceremony in 10/06.
This was going to be our honeymoon. We diligently put all of our purchases on our Southwest Visa and were going to fly to Hawaii for free.
I guess I need to find another rewards credit card to start using....maybe a new airline too. It's too bad, I used to like Southwest.
Southwest first said they'd accommodate us (in emails and different calls I made)... today they said everybody traveling to Hawaii after May 3rd who booked through Southwest is SOL... go buy a ticket elsewhere.
Hawaii travel is the only reason I've been accumulating Rapid Rewards on Southwest.
I've canceled my Southwest visa card.
Given their flip-flop in "accommodating us", I hope there's a class action suite... as I'd like to cover my losses on this.
Does anybody know of a lawyer starting any class action suits over this?
Thanks,
Chris
I would have been happy just getting my money back if Southwest had told me that's what's going to happen from the beginning. But now, great, a voucher. I'm not holding my breath that this "gesture of goodwill" will be for 200 dollars per person (the difference between the fare I could have gotten if I had reserved just when ATA went bust and what I paid today).
Hahahahahahaha
You people are simply great. A company, not southwest, goes bankrupt. Southwest has already turned your money, or your revenue in the form of RR credits over to ATA, and you moan when you get them back. If you bought direct from ATA you may never have gotten them back.
Instead of you moaning about how terrible life is, you should be thanking SW for digging into their own pocket to refund your money. People, I know this is a surprise, but when a company goes bankrupt, that means they HAVE NO MONEY. That means they have already spent your money. Where is your refund coming from....SW bank account. You should be thankful. But, all I hear here is how bad SW is because my trip is effected.
Tell me, if you rent a car through Budget, on the SW site, and the car is not there, whose fault is it? If you rent a hotel through the SW site, and it is not there, whose fault is it.....It is not SW fault. This is the same thing.
My family and I are among the 20,000 travelers to Hawaii who Southwest promised to reaccommodate, only to reneg on their promise three days later. I am absolutely STUNNED that Southwest, of all companies I've ever done business with, would do this. I've flown SW almost one hundred times in the last few years and have been completely satisfied with their customer service in every way. I talked them up to my friends, my colleagues, strangers at the grocery store... recruited a half dozen people to get a Rapid Rewards Visa... I could not be a bigger fan and advocate of Southwest. Until today.
I understand that ATA's bankruptcy is not Southwest's fault nor its responsibility. And I would have completely understood if SW had said right from the start: "Hey, we're so sorry for your inconvenience, here's a complete refund, good luck." Instead, when I called on April 7th (after waiting several days as SW requested, because they were busy assisting immediate travelers) I was reassured over and over by the customer service agent that "Our CEO is committed to reaccommodating everyone" and "please be patient, a reaccommodation agent will contact you soon to rebook you on another carrier" and "We will not leave ANYONE in the lurch" and my personal favorite, "We do not want to be the airline known for ruining everyone's vacation." I remember thinking, wow, I should have known-- of COURSE this is the way SW is handling this-- there is no company better at customer service. And once again I found myself bragging to anyone who would listen about how outstanding SW is. So when I received the email today, only three days later, saying, oops, actually we're just giving refunds after all, I was completely shocked. It's unacceptable. Who is this airline and what have they done with Southwest??
Look, I would have understood completely if they told me on Monday that I was out of luck and to book elsewhere. I'd actually already looked around and found an alternate flight for $475. But I was GUARANTEED I'd be taken care of by Southwest. So I took them at their word. Today, they let us down completely, and the same tickets we could have had on Monday for $475 are now over $900 dollars. What do we do? My brother lives in Hawaii and we see him once a year, at best. This was our first vacation all together in five years.
Guess what, Southwest? YOU JUST BECAME THE AIRLINE THAT RUINS EVERYONE'S VACATIONS. Exactly what you promised me three days ago you'd do anything to avoid.
Unbelievable. I've talked to three people at SW, all of whom are polite and apologetic, but none of whom seem to understand the inherent problem with promising your customers something that you can't and don't deliver. That's FRAUD.
And from a business perspective, I can't understand how on Monday SW was so confident in their ability to reaccommodate everyone that they made unequivocal guarantees, and 3 days later it's 100% impossible for them to help ANYONE booked after May 3-- and somehow this was entirely unforseeable a few days ago. They told me there simply aren't enough seats to rebook everyone, and my problem with that is I know for a fact my flight times are available for purchase right this second-- they're just very expensive. The CS agent told me that if they helped me, they'd have to help everyone, and they just can't. So there you have it. Welcome to the New Southwest. They'd rather disappoint EVERYONE than accommodate some but not all. And they'd rather lose multiple customers who would have spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years than cover the cost of one flight THEY ALREADY PROMISED TO COVER.
What an absolute disappointment.
Everyone, again, I can't stress enough that we weren't the ones that cancelled your trips....ATA's decision to suddenly cease operations was a very unpleasant surprise to Southwest as well.
Vicki, no, you shouldn't be happy about this--I wouldn't be, and Southwest certainly isn't. However, offering a full refund is simply the best thing we can do for you now--and certainly better than keeping you "on hold" waiting for a solution that isn't possible.
Lisa L, my heart totally goes out to you, your husband, and your kids....I so wish that we could offer you better options.
Chris, we *did* try to accomodate everyone as fairly as possible. When that was no longer possible, we did the fairest and most equitable thing possible: offered full refunds and a travel voucher in addition to your fare.
Tommi, you'll be getting a full refund for the fare you paid *plus* the $200 travel voucher. Your comment made it sound like you thought you were only getting the travel voucher--your fare refund will be in full and to the form of payment originally given when you made your booking. Just wanted to make sure you got complete information.
In response to other comments.....
Joe W., yes, the 757 is a significantly larger aircraft than almost any variant of the 737, but once again, one of Southwest's core efficiencies is using only the Boeing 737--further, using variants of the 737 that seat roughly the same capacity (currently, between 122 and 137 seats). Introducing the 757 would blow so many efficiencies and economies of scale that it would negate our entire cost advantage.
Steve, we are in LUV with South Florida, and we know Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach county residents LUV them some Vegas and Phoenix. We're watching....we're watching....
Dorothy, Daytona Beach isn't in our future anytime soon, primarily because of our 100+ daily departures from Orlando. While it may be a bit of a pain to hop in I-4 to get to the Orlando airport, we hope the breadth of service will make it worth your while. (Nice name, BTW....my late mom's name was Dorothy, so you automatically have a soft spot in my heart!).
Keep the comments coming, guys....I'm paying attention, and will keep up the responses as long as you can stand me!
Bill
Chris. I too would like to be in the loop on a class action lawsuit and will be keeping my eyes open.
As with many others, I have been terribly midhandled and lied to about the Southwest reaccomodation efforts. On the day Southwest announced the ATA demise, I would have been able to book an alternate flight on United for a few bucks less than my southwest/ATA flight. I called Southwest (even though I was supposed to wait a week) and they told me NOT TO RESCHEDULE ON ANOTHER FLIGHT; they said they would take care of reaccomodating my family (5 travelers) scheduled to fly in mid-July. I waited the week and called back yesterday to find out how they're going to handle me only to learn that once again, they couldn't talk to me. They claimed that the new date of clients they were helping was through May 3rd. I would have to wait up to 30 more days for them to call me. In the meantime...
I have been watching ORBITZ flights dwindle away while Southwest is blowing my family off. And then the news today! Too bad clients. We lied to you and we'll give you a LUV voucher to shut you up! For me it sucks even more as they aren't even offering 5 vouchers for all of us - no just one little voucher for my whole family.
Well, it's not gonna end well for Southwest if this is the way they are truly going to resolve this issue. Their reason for not accomodating (too few flights betwenn the mainland and hawaii) is really a lie. I could have last week and yes, today, booked an equivalent flight on another airline (but the price is now elevated!) And, in 3 weeks, Hawaiian air has announced new service from the mainland to Hawaii so I am certain Southwest's reason for blowing us off is not true.
Kelly St. Germain
There was no flip flopping done at all. The HONEST truth was told by everyone... Live with it... And no class action lawyer would touch this with a 10 foot pole....Southwest did NOTHING wrong....
So I am on the phone with SWA right now and it appears you will have to wait for your refund until they are ready to process it which I am told could be more than 30 days. I guess I will be paying even more intersest on a trip I am not even going to take. Any idea yet on hoe big these vouchers are going to be?
k
I too have been flying Southwest to accumulate RR credits to go to Hawaii. I guess, being in Houston, I can always fly Continental Airlines........
I'm one of those 'fly Southwest everywhere' girls - because my employer utilizes them exclusively.
I am a bridesmaid in a wedding in Hawai'i in July, and decided to turn that honor into a 'gift' to my family...a 'healing' time for us to bond after the unexpected death of my father a few months ago.
I booked FIVE roundtrip tickets for my mom, sis, grandmother and friend to Hawaii for 7/9 - 7/14. I was very blessed - between myself and two friends, I was able to come up with three RR vouchers and that took care of three of the tickets TO Hawaii...but, the rest was my very hard-earned, 'scrimp and save' money...money I set aside diligently every single month.
I had a moment of anxiety when I read of ATA's bankruptcy, but was reassured by the emails I received from Southwest. Surely, you would accomodate us...you had never failed me before.
Until today. When I got the email telling us our flights were to be canceled, I will be honest. I broke down completely. My 'gift' to my family is no longer an option. Not only can noone tell me WHEN I will be refunded for the amounts charged to my credit card...those funds won't even be sufficient enough to purchase TWO roundtrip tickets on another airline....and that's IF I get a refund in a timely manner. As it is, I am watching other airlines and am terrified that getting there myself is going to be a struggle, much less trying to accomodate the others in my party. That dream, I am afraid, went up in smoke the moment that ATA filed bankruptcy.
Do you know what stings even more, Bill? I purchased all of our airfare the moment Southwest opened up the bookings for those dates...way back in January. As Ernie O'Bryan pointed out - -
"This seems a shame because although we have been booked since January, I know that a person who scheduled a flight
at the last minute in March and planned to leave before May 3 would be able to jump ahead of the rest of us and have his tickets intact."
I agree with Ernie....in this case, our careful planning actually hurt us. Is that the message you want to send to your faithful contingent?
Yes, I appreciate the fact you're handing out travel vouchers for our 'inconvenience'...but those vouchers won't get me, my mother, sister, grandmother and friend to Hawai'i in July.
Bill, I am glad you didn't have to hear my mother sob on the other end of the phone when I broke the news of the cancelations. This is a trip she has been looking forward to since shortly after my father's death. It's been a bright point, one of the few positive things we have been able to do -- and the gist of the email today just frustrated me to no end. Basically, it came across as "we can't help all of you, so we aren't going to help any of you". I know that my assessment is harsh...but, so is the reality. I planned, I saved, I booked early...and I am left with few options and a MUCH higher financial burden...one that I am sure I can't overcome in the time remaining.
I wish Southwest had taken into consideration those of us who booked early and are thus already financially tied to you. You have held my money since January...that's money that could have been used to purchase fares from another carrier by now. I know you have no control over ATA's financial downfall....but, Southwest has had control of my money and control of our (now) non-existent trip.
I'll be honest - I don't know that I want to give Southwest another chance. Yes, I will now have quite a bit of voucher credit coming...but it is voucher credit from a company that told me today that my hard work, planning and faithfulness to this airline doesn't warrant them 'making it right' for me and my family.
Hey Southwest: what would you want done if you were in my situation? Did you "do the right thing"?
Quote: Does anybody know of a lawyer starting any class action suits over this?
How are you going to sue a company that went bankrupt? Everything the company owns is going to be auctioned off and most money will go to the creditors and debt owed so there won't be much left. If any!
FYI - If you charged your tickets on a credit card just call and dispute the charge. I got my airfare refunded by Capital One in 48 hours...
Okay, it was pretty petty of me to complain about a couple of hundred dollars when I'm still fortunate enough to be able to take my dream vacation. And it really is not about the money, it's about being lied to. It makes you feel stupid and angry.
I don't believe that Southwest lied on purpose. I understand and knew from the beginning that flights would become very full and the prices would go way up. Southwest reaccommodating everyone would obviously make the flights even fuller and even more expensive. But Southwest told me they'd handle it, so I thought they must know the situation better than an ordinary person like me.
I guess they didn't. How's that to instill confidence in customers and the investors?
And to those who want everyone to jump from joy getting a refund: I take that for granted, since we bought tickets from Southwest for a Southwest flight. The flight being operated by ATA does not change that. Southwest would be on very shaky legal ground if they didn't issue a refund. And I doubt they are so bad at writing contracts that they would actually have paid ATA for the flights before people actually flew. This is not the same as with rental cars and hotels for which Southwest just acts as a travel agent.
Guys,
I can honestly say I am as disappointed as you are. Many, many options other than full refunds with goodwill vouchers were explored, and every single one of them had brick walls that simply were insurmountable. We know that ATA's shutdown wrecked many--perhaps thousands--of dream vacations, and we looked at every possibility to resurrect those. It just wasn't possible.
I won't address everyone indivudually, but I just have to give a few specific responses.
Kelli, and Chris, I'm not sure how you think we lied to you....and I'm sorry that you think so. Yes, I do think we did the right thing here. It took time to explore all available options, and when we finally knew what we could and couldn't do, we took the best actions possible, as soon as we could. In my book, that was far better than stringing people along while we went down endless dead ends.
Aaron, it takes 30 days for a credit card refund to process, and we're not just doing one refund here....we're doing over 20,000. We are doing the best we can.
Jerilyn, yours is the kind of story that hurts me the most...and that I wish the hardest that we could do something for. I am not sure why you think booking early hurt you--the reality is that for travel from 5/3 onwards *no one* is being reaccomodated, there simply weren't acceptable options, and this is the same whether you booked early or late, on RR tickets or not. We know it's not a pleasing outcome, and we know it's certainly not what anyone wants to hear--but we did treat everyone the same, and we did the best we could for *everyone*. And I am quite familiar with breaking horrible news to family--I had to tell my mother of my father's death, then years later had to tell my son of my mother's passing. So yes, while I didn't hear your mother's sobs, I've heard more than enough of them in my years to know what they sound like...and what they feel like. All any of us can do at this point can do is wish you the very best...and hope that eventually you can come back to us.
*Sigh* I know I can't make y'all happy here, nor can I change your mind---and I won't even try....but I am here, guys, if you need to vent. I understand the disappointment--I absolutely, positively do.
Bill
I also am VERY unhappy (who isn't) but life goes on...
Bill, can you expand on the Vouchers we'll be receiving?
The $200 travel voucher - Is it one per passenger or one per reservation (with mutliple passengers)?
Is there an expiration date on the voucher? Usage restrictions? Are they conbinable/transferable?
Thanks.
Bill said: "IÃ
Chris, I fully and absolutely stand by what I said. Where I come from, a "lie" means a statement that is made with deliberate intent to deceive or to convey false impression. Southwest never did that in the case of ATA's sudden shutdown; every bit of information, every comment made on this blog, on our website, and by every Reservations Agent in our network, reflected what at the time was our current-state, good-faith plan. I know for a fact that many options were explored for reaccomodation for Customers traveling after the initial 30-day period. None of them worked out. In the end, the best accomodation we could do for folks that had bought Southwest tickets using ATA service to Hawaii from 5/03 onwards was to refund your entire fare, give you a "we're sorry" voucher (which is FAR more than any other airline has, or would, do), let you make alternative plans (whether to Hawaii or to a different destination). Then to make sure we are fully available and transparent on the issue, we've opened it up here on the blog to keep everyone up to speed *and* to allow you to vent your frustrations. Not only does that indicate to me that Southwest didn't intentionlly mislead or decive, to me it shows that we've gone above and beyond--to not only keep you posted on what was happening, but to try and make it whole.
We may have to agree to disagree here, Chris, but you're welcome to opinion--and my heartfelt disappointment for you, and for the situation, remains.
Hi Bill,
"Many, many options other than full refunds with goodwill vouchers were explored, and every single one of them had brick walls that simply were insurmountable. We know that ATAÃ
OH MY GOODNESS.........BABIES BABIES...........YES, ITS SAD THAT ATA SUNK, BUT SW DOESN'T NEED TO DO ANY FAVORS FOR YOU BECAUSE OF IT, YET THEY ARE.......WHEN 9/11 CAME, I HAD A FLIGHT BOOKED ON DELTA, AND THEY SAID THEY WOULD ACCOMODATE ANY CHANGES BUT ON THEIR TERM....WHICH WAS YOU HAD TO RESCHEDULE YOUR FLIGHT TO BE FLOWN WITHIN 6 MONTHS............I TOLD THEM I DIDN'T WANT TO FLY AT ALL AND ASKED FOR A REFUND (EXACTLY 2 WEEKS AFTER 9/11) AND THEY REFUSED MY REFUND......I ESCALATED IT TO THE SUPERVISOR AND SHE SAID I WOULD NOT BE GETTING A REFUND AND I WOULD HAVE TO RESCHEDULE AS TOLD......NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S..SO I LOST 350.00 DOLLARS...........MAD, ABSOLUTELY, FAIR, NO.............BUT, WE ALL KNOW LIFE ISN'T FAIR..........
SW IS GREAT........NO OTHER AIRLINES WOULD GIVE YOU BACK YOUR MONEY OR RR AND AN ADDITIONAL 200 DOLLAR VOUCHER.......AND, AS WE KNOW WE HAVE NO GUARANTEE FOR WHAT PRICE GAS WILL BE FROM ONE MINUTE TO THE NEXT, SO WHY SHOULD WE ALSO BLAME SW CAUSE FLIGHTS YOU OBSERVED WHEN HEARING OF THIS WERE GOING THROUGH THE ROOF..........??????????????? ITS NOT SOUTHWEST'S FAULT, THAT THE OTHER AIRLINES HAVE INCREASED THEIR PRICES BECAUSE "THEY CAN".........CALL THEM DIRECTLY AND COMPLAIN TO THEM......SOUTHWEST HAS NO CONTROL OVER OTHER AIRLINES PRICING.....COME ON FOLKS...........
THERE IS NO DOUBT WHEN THOSE AGENTS TOLD YOU TO "HANG IN THERE" THEY WOULD BE ACCOMODATING YOU, THAT THEY MEANT IT........BUT AS WE KNOW, THIS SITUATION WAS BIGGER THEN THEY EVEN ANTICIPATED AND VERY COSTLY FOR THEM, ESPECIALLY AFTER ANTICIPATING SENDING OUT THOSE VOUCHERS.......I PRAISE THEM FOR TRYING....NO, YOU AREN'T GOING ON YOUR HONEYMOON, OR TO WEDDINGS, BUT IN READING THESE BLOGS, FOR HEAVENS SAKE, YOU MADE YOUR OWN DECISION BY WAITING IT OUT.......THEY MAY HAVE TOLD YOU TO SIT TIGHT, BUT WE ALL HAVE CHOICES AS TO WHAT WE "KNOW" WE SHOULD DO.........I FOR ONE WOULD HAVE BOOKED THE ALTERNATIVE FLIGHTS ANYWAY, JUST TO MAKE SURE I HAD "BACKUP".......NO, I'M NOT RICH, JUST OBSERVANT, AND WHEN THIS HAPPENED, AND BOOM, 3 AIRLINES IN ONE WEEK, ONE BEING A MAJOR CARRIER OF THE ISLANDS, HELLO, IT DIDN'T TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT IF I WAS GOING TO GET THERE, I'D HAVE TO DO SO ON MY OWN, AND QUICKLY............
LAWSUITS LAWSUITS LAWSUITS......YOU ARE THE TYPE OF PERSON THAT MAKES ALL OF US "SICK" BECAUSE OF YOUR "BLAME THE OTHER PERSON FOR NOT TAKING RESPONSIBLITY YOUR OWN DECISIONS" ATTITUDE IS JUST OVERWHELMING............EVERYTHING HAS TO COME TO A "LAWSUIT"..........THAT IS WHAT RAISES TAXES, INSURANCES, FEES, PRICES OF TICKETS, AND EVERYTHING ELSE, BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU ARE "OWED"............NO ONE IS "OWED" ANYTHING, NOR SHOULD ANYONE EXSPECT ANYTHING FROM ANYONE............
HOW ABSOLUTELY UNCARING ALL OF YOU ARE, AS THERE ARE MANY THERE WAITING TO GET BACK HOME.......DO YOU THINK THEY ARE HAVING A FREAKIN PICNIC??????????????? THEY ARE WAITING THERE TURN, AND NO DOUBT, SW WILL GET THEM BACK HOME...
OUR WORLD IS WHAT IT IS BECAUSE EVERYONE WANTS TO BLAME AND NOT TAKE RESPONSIBLITY, SAYING THE AGENT SAID THIS AND SAID THAT..........SO WHAT? THOSE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT ARE PROMISING NOT TO RAISE TAXES.......DO YOU BELIEVE THAT TOO?
FLY ANOTHER AIRLINE AND DON'T COME BACK TO SW, AS IT WILL LEAVE MORE ROOM ON THE PLANES FOR ME AND MY FAMILY......YOU SAY YOU'LL NEVER FLY SW, AND WE ALL KNOW THAT IS A LIE.....NOW, WE SHOULD HOLD YOU TO THAT, AND IF WE FIND YOU ON SW EVER, WE SHOULD SUE YOU FOR TELLING US A LIE.........HOW DOES THAT GRAB YOU.........
LIFE GOES ON FOLKS AND IF YOU DECIDED TO MOVE TO ANOTHER AIRLINE, THANKS FOR YOUR SEATS!.......THANK YOU SOUTHWEST FOR WORKING YOUR "ASSETS" OFF IN TRYING TO ACCOMODATE THE SELFISH......ATA IS THE ONE AT FAULT, NOT YOU......BUT, FOR SOME REASON THESE SELFISH PEOPLE HAVE TO FIND SOMEONE TO BLAME....I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT THAT YOU GAVE MANY MANY OF US THIS PAST YEAR THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THE OPTION TO GO TO HAWAII FOR SO LITTLE..........GOSH, YOU ARE WONDERFUL!!!! SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.........
Bill,
I also am disappointed by the fact that i was guaranteed to be reaccomodated when i called and checked on the situation. Had I been told then that I would only be offered a refund we could have rebooked on another airline at that time and been alright. However I was promised by an agent in customer service that it would be reaccomodated and if that specific reaccomodation wasnt acceptable that we would be offered refunds which i also found to be fair. He also had mentioned we will be contacted in 30 days. However, yesterdays email completely revokes the guarantee I had been told and now checking the prices for flights are around double what they were. I agree with most of the above comments that the problem isn't that you arent taking care of the customers but that you have stated things and told people not to worry and then 72 hours state the exact opposite. Although most people may continue to fly southwest i highly doubt anyone will equate you as being more honest and helpful than other airlines which is what I always viewed southwest as.
=Mike=
I can not believe that how some one can close doors taking peopleÃ
Dismayed,
It's wonderful everything worked out so peachy for you. Congrats! I hope it's never your own wedding you have to cancel or your own family's heart you have to break because a company's promise went unfulfilled.
Try to have some sympathy for people like Jerilyn who saved everything for a once-in-a-lifetime trip for her family. You should read her story and consider what you would have done. I know you believe you would have handled this situation flawlessly SINCE YOU'RE A TOTAL GENIUS WHO HAS EVERYTHING FIGURED OUT AND WRITES IN ALL CAPS TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNOWS IT, but the reality is most people don't have the means to buy a "backup" trip-- maybe they could have made it work on prices a week ago, but they were assured by Southwest they wouldn't have to. I fail to understand what is so outrageous about being upset by that.
Have a nice day and try to show compassion for others.
Bill: A good explanation.
I was saddened to see the demise of ATA. I had four "Comp" tickets on ATA booked to Maui that are now worthless. Southwest saved the day. I had enough RR flights to book a family trip to Orlando instead. My timeshare (Westin) accommodated the change in plans with no fee and I am going to Disney world instead. ATA took me to Hawaii too many times to remember and I look forward to Southwest investing in the Hawaii market. We need to be patient, it will happen. Market forces drive Southwest and I am positive they are looking at this long term.
As upset as I initially was, I realize Southwest had the best intentions when they promised to reaccommodate everyone. Unfortunately that can-do spirit made a bad situation even worse for a lot of us.
Bill, I really appreciate that you are here on behalf of Southwest, reiterating your sympathy and regret over this. You seem very sincere and I thank you for the opportunity to vent. (At the same time, I do hope our feedback is reported so that this kind of thing might be avoided in the future.)
Chris, Corinne, EQUALLY DISMAYED, et al,
I just re-read Southwest's original press release concerning the ATA situation. It said ...
"Upon hearing ATA's decision, Southwest immediately implemented a plan to take care of all Customers who purchased a ticket on Southwest and are scheduled to travel on ATA service by rebooking them on a new itinerary closest to their previous travel plans, or offering a full refund for any unused portion of a ticket."
The possibility of a refund being the final remedy for some people was always there, and the press release never used the words "promise," "guarantee," and "unequivocally" in respect to the rebooking option.
If some individuals implied otherwise, or if you inferred otherwise, I am sure it was because everyone wanted very much for that to be the case. It was certainly not because anyone was trying to "pull a fast one." No one wanted to disappoint your friends and families (who in some cases quite possibly might have been their own friends and families).
However, it is possible to make the case that you (the people who booked ATA through Southwest) are the lucky ones. If you had booked your trip to Hawaii through ATA, you would have the following options:
- No reaccommodation
- No refund
- No travel voucher
- No customer service phone number to call
- No web site on which to vent your frustration
Of course, the really UNlucky ones in this situation are the ATA employees who woke up a few days ago with no jobs in a sluggish economy and in an industry that is not hiring.
It's a bad situation. I know that many people worked very hard for a different result. The final result was not what anyone wanted, but rebooking of everyone was impossible. The necessary number of seats to Hawaii simply do not exist. Having your refund a few days earlier would not have changed that fact.
Your frustration is understandable. Some of your comments are not.
Have a nice day and try to show compassion for others. ("Others" includes the people at Southwest who tried very hard NOT to disappoint you.)
Hey DISMAYED
Turn your caps lock off. I completely skipped over your post because I hate it when people type in all caps! It shows that you don't know how to use proper capitalization. It makes sentences difficult to read as it is an uncommon way of typing.
Bill,
My turn to vent. Seems like the next airline to go bankrupt is going to be Southwest. You have frustrated people out here for good reason. Like any good business, well done is better than well said. You keep the promises you make. Customer service is number one!! Seems like customer service in non existent anymore.
Oral contracts are as good as written ones. Seems to me, in this blog, you guys at Southwest made a big boo boo with telling us in writing and hundreds of customers relating here in this blog that they were orally promised a service. That service was to reaccommodate our flights. We all took Southwest at their good word. Yeah, it was never Southwest's fault. But when Southwest said don't worry, we will accommodate all that want that option, and to call us back if you have a later flight, because we are trying to help those more pressing, we did. When SW reneged on that promise, it became Southwest's problem.
Lawsuits, oh yeah. Southwest will be the next bankrupt airline. But wait, here is my alternative. If nothing else can be done, let us use those vouchers as cash rebates, so we can defer the cost of the other exorbitant flights as much as possible, that you tell us we have to do. If the rest of you frustrated customers feel that would help, send your posts now. Let's get this thing started!!!!
MY DEAR EQUALLY DISMAYED......FIRST OFF, SYMPATHY IS THERE FOR MANY, THAT ISN'T THE ISSUE AT ALL.....JERILYN'S EMAIL WAS MOST TOUCHING AND I AGREE WITH EVERYONE WHO IS DISAPPOINTED BY THIS UPROAR, THANKS AGAIN TO ATA........THE ISSUE IS THE BLAME GAME TO SOUTHWEST..........SOUTHWEST DIDN'T HAVE TO FIND A PARTNER TO GIVE MANY THE PRIVILEGE OF FLYING TO HAWAII FOR CHEAP, BUT THEY FOUND THIS TOOL FOR ALL OF US TO USE, AND BECAUSE IT WENT BELLY UP FOLKS ARE BLAMING SOUTHWEST.......THEY SHOULD BE BLAMING ATA......MANY FOLKS WERE USING THEIR RR REWARDS FOR THE TRIP, BUT HOW ABOUT THOSE WHO PAID "CASH" TO ATA DIRECTLY? THEY ARE OUT COMPLETELY.... AT LEAST SW HAS THE DECENCY TO REFUND WHATEVER AND "MORE".......FYI, I HAVE MY OWN ISSUES ABOUT OUR HAWAII TRIP, BUT CHOSE NOT TO AIR IT BECAUSE ITS OF NO VALUE TO ANYONE ELSE BUT US. NOW THAT ALL KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE FACED WITH, YOU HAVE TO ADJUST AND MAKE CHANGES......."YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT I HAVE THE MEANS AND ARE HANDLING THIS FLAWLESSLY BECAUSE I'M SUCH A GENIUS " PER YOUR WORDING..BEING UPSET IS EXPECTED, BUT BLAMING SWA FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS TOTALLY OUT OF THEIR CONTROL IS JUST PLAIN "WRONG"..........LIKE I SAID "NO ONE EVER SAID LIFE WAS FAIR"...NO ONE SEEMS TO BE SENSITIVE TO THE FACT THAT MANY LOST THEIR JOBS BECAUSE OF ATA, AND ALL PEOPLE CARE ABOUT IS WANTING TO GET TO HAWAII.......HOW ABOUT THE FAMILIES THAT DON'T KNOW HOW THEY ARE GOING TO PAY THEIR HOUSE PAYMENT FOR THIS MONTH?????? FOOD FOR THEIR FAMILY????????SENSITIVITY??? I DIDN'T HERE YOUR COMPASSION HERE.... I DIDN'T HEAR YOU SPEAK ABOUT THESE FORMER WORKERS...........WELL, WE ALL HAVE CHOICES AND THERE ARE OTHER AIRLINES THAT WILL GLADLY GET YOU THERE, THE DIFFERENCE IS YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY THE PIPER OR MAKE OTHER PLANS......IT ISN'T FAIR I KNOW.....EXSPECTING SWA TO MAKE IT WORK FOR OVER 20,000 WHO HAD PLANS TO HAWAII WILL ONLY ENHANCE THE CHANCES OF SWA GOING BELLY UP, OR RAISING THERE PRICES SO HIGH THAT NO ONE WILL BE GIVEN THE PRIVILEGE TO FLY FOR FUN......
EVERYONE BEING UPSET ISN'T THE ISSUE, ALL THESE SWA WORKERS HAVE HAD THERE CUP RUNNETH OVER ALSO WITH YELLS, NASTY WORDS, HANG UPS ETC., BUT CALLING THEM LIARS CONTINUALLY DURING AN EVENT THEY HAD NO CONTROL OF, AND "UP FRONT" DID MEAN WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT TRYING TO ACCOMODATE EVERYONE, WAS OVERWHELMING FOR THEM ALSO.....BUT, REFUNDING AND GIVING THE ADDITONAL 200 DOLLAR VOUCHER IS ALSO "AN ACCOMODATION"....AND THE BEST THEY COULD DO...
SO "EQUALLY DISMAYED", "you have a wonderful day also" AND TRY TO REALIZE THE DIFFERENCE IN BEING "UPSET" AND DOWN RIGHT "NASTY" TO A COMPANY THAT HAD TRIED TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBLITY OF ANOTHER AIRLINES FAILURES, TRIED TO KEEP THE PROMISES TO ITS FLYERS THAT ATA FAILED TO DO, AND STILL SEEMS TO GET KICKED IN THE FACE, OVER AND OVER.......THOSE WHO BOUGHT TKTS DIRECTLY FROM ATA ARE OUT OF LUCK ...WHERE IS YOUR COMPASSION FOR ALL THESE FOLKS WHO HAVE LOST THERE MONEY AND WILL NEVER SEE A DIME OF IT???????...AT THIS MOMENT AM I GLAD I'M AN ATA CUSTOMER OR A SWA CUSTOMER?????????? NO BRAINER! again, have a great weekend...*...(typed especially for you so no one else will see....)
Steve,
I just saw your blog about my typing in caps, and unfortunately I just sent out another blog in caps. I just love to type in caps, always have and no one has ever bought this to my attention..Thank you for your comment/criticism and I'll be sure not to type in CAPS oops caps, on this blog again...Have a good day..!
Dear DISMAYED,
I appreciate your input but I think you've misunderstood my point. I am certainly not "blaming" Southwest for ATA's demise, nor did I expect Southwest to fix it. However, they promised they would rebook me at their cost and I took them at their word, instead of rebooking elsewhere as I had planned to do. So what I DID expect from Southwest was for them to follow through on what they told me they would do. Please understand they didn't say, "We'll try to rebook you," "We may be able to rebook you," they said, "We WILL rebook you" and stated it was only a matter of time.
What part of this or my previous post is "nasty" toward Southwest?? Your own post was downright hostile toward complete strangers who are only here to vent frustration at a very disappointing turn of events.
It seems to me you may be more closely affiliated with Southwest than you let on...
In any case, you're absolutely right that there are situations more dire than mine or Jerilyn's or even the unfortunate ATA employees who are out of work because of this. While I believe compassion for ALL is extremely important, you can be compassionate and still retain your right to express frustration when you feel you